In this blog conversation, you can make comments, ask questions, and help others' connect to text. I've posted some questions below to get us started, though you don't need to feel tied to these questions alone.In order to get discussion credit today, you need to post at least twice.
•What’s Jefferson’s thesis?
–Outline his top five points, from your POV.
•What elements of “Query 17” demonstrate rationalist thinking?
•Having Jefferson’s background, what most resonated with us about his beliefs?
•What are his major concerns?
•How do these concerns reflective of our country’s history as well as our country’s foundations, in which Jefferson was influential?
•How are his ideas useful to us today?
•Which of his ideas resonates with you? Why?
•With which ideas do you disagree? Why?
Class: do you think that Jefferson was supportive of the "religious slaves" or the free inquiry?
ReplyDeleteLet's start here with ideas about his thesis--what is he arguing? Be specific with lines.
ReplyDeleteClass: In Jefferson's paper he states that some of the people who came from England often came to escape religious persecution, however, "they shewed equal intolerance in this country with their Presbyterian brethren..." Why do you think they showed intolerance, or persecution, when that was one thing they were supposedly trying to escape?
ReplyDeleteI like how Jefferson explained how if a religious group uses violence to attempt to create uniformity, people will natural go away from them. This exposes the faults in multiple religious reforms throughout history, such as the Inquisition. Jefferson suggests that a stronger bond is created, not through a uniform religion, but under the freedom of religion.
ReplyDeleteI felt that Jefferson was all over the place in his argument. I felt like he switched sides multiple times and I got confused with what point he was trying to make. His words also were very confusing so i felt like he did not get anywhere in my opinion. What do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteI think that one of Thomas Jefferson's main ideas was unity. He wants unity as a nation, but the only way to achieve this is through religious tolerance.
ReplyDeleteIn the sentence, "The errors seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws," I thought to mean that he wanted a government that didn't punish you for the laws.
ReplyDeleteGrace: Definitely free inquiry. He states the whole view of "religious slavery" just to further argue his point that we should be able to choose what things we want to be prominent in our lives.
ReplyDeleteFree inquiry. He wrote this paper to try and break people free of the "religious slaves". He thought is was unfair to punish people for speaking what they believe.
ReplyDeleteI think that he was supportive of the free inquiry because he talked a lot about how horrible the idea of heresy is. Heresy is one representation of religious slavery because it forces people to comply with religious views.
ReplyDeleteGrace: Jefferson was supportive of free inquiry. He thought that a theocracy was bound to fail due to the restrictions put upon the society. "Religious slaves" were seen as oppressed people and Jefferson pushed for freedom of thought and beliefs i.e. free inquiry.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things in Jefferson's "Query 17" that I thought was really important/influential was his quote: "It does me no injury for me neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
ReplyDeleteIt think its an important lesson in tolerance for people of the United States, especially for religious tolerance. There's no reason to hate someone based on their belief system. If someone believes in a peaceful belief system or religion, I think that it is important to respect that. But I think its important to note the last sentence, which talks about injury. If someone's religion does become destructive (for example: the Crusades in the Middle Ages, killing people for their lack of the "correct" belief) I think that steps need to be taken to stop the violence. People should be free to believe in any religion, as long as that religion does not become destructive/harmful to others.
In the first page, there was a quote that really related to the crucible, at least for me. "made it penal in parents to refuse to have their children baptized." This really made me think about Proctor and how his youngest son had not been baptized yet, and that was used against him in the court. The English church would also use that against one.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gabby but I think he also wanted religious freedom for the new people of America
ReplyDeleteGrace: I thought through the paper that Jefferson is all for free inquiry. He seems frustrated with people trying to control other's thinking because what they think does not affect anyone. He says "it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god", which explains that their opinions don't hurt him, even if they're not agreeable.
ReplyDeleteGrace: I think that Jefferson was against religious slavery. I felt like he wanted religion to do absolutely nothing with the government.
ReplyDeletesydney- i think that people showed intolerance because at that point that was all that they knew. they had just come from England where they were constantly prejudiced against because of their religion. It was just immediately going to be all better, i think that they had to take a little time to figure everything out, and how to escape from that intolerance.
ReplyDeleteJefferson's points out how the oppression that the first people of America were fleeing from was not only recreated, but magnified within their societies. He speaks to the irony of the ways of intolerance that is deeply rooted in American culture. "But when they proceeded to form on that declaration the ordinance of government, instead of taking up every principle declared in the bill of rights, and guarding it by legislative sanction, they passed over that which asserted our religious rights, leaving them as they found them."
ReplyDeletesydney:
ReplyDeletethat is a question that we asked yesterday in our small group. Our group thought that it is because they did not know anything else other than the laws that were already in place in England. They did not know how to punish any other way so they used the laws that we in place back home, for their new government.
I believe that T.J. is arguing that Religion needs to be kept away from government. It only leads to a divided nation socially, politically and economically.
ReplyDeleteJefferson seems to be telling us that people are most united when they don't agree on every aspect of our lives. Instead, people unite in spirit of something or when we are depending on one another for its success.
ReplyDeleteSydney: I think that those who came from England to escape persecution knew only persecution, and so they repeated what they were used to. I also think that they were trying to protect themselves by shunning and persecuting outsiders, even if they meant no harm.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Jefferson was supportive of the free inquiry of people so that they may choose what they wanted to believe and were not forced into somebody else's beliefs without total agreement. It is kind of like what happened with imperialism and how one countries ways were forced upon another.
ReplyDeleteSarah- I think that he made a bunch of different points in this paper. It seemed like the main ones though were that society needs free inquiry and accept difference in religion to function and advance. I was also a little confused but that's what I got out of his paper.
ReplyDeleteAdam: I really like the way you said that. Do you think that Jefferson was ever punished for any sort of religious slavery? Or was he simply writing about what he had seen happen to others?
ReplyDeleteI thought there was an interesting connection between Inquiry, and Inquisition. I couldn't quite make the whole connection in my head but do you think Jefferson purposefully did this?
ReplyDeleteSydney: I think that they didn't really know how to show tolerance of it, because it was how they were raised. They may not have even realized what they were doing, because they just assumed that once they were free of religious persecution, they were also free to do whatever they wished, which included telling others what to do. I think what I'm trying to say is that perhaps they left England to gain power, and once nobody was controlling them, they could be on top.
ReplyDeleteGrace: I think Jefferson was saying that the Christianity of his day was flawed, since people were then slaves to their own religion. He was definately supporting free inquiry.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think that these ideas relate to the religious standards of today?
I agree with Sarah because he did switch over multiple times when talking about important issues like religion governing. I think the reason he did no get the point across to us as well as we may have thought is because there is a difference of about 200 years and the English language has changed a great deal since then.
ReplyDeleteGrace, I think Jefferson supported free inquiry. That was one of his 5 main points. Other points I though were significant are: freedom of religion, truthful government, laws should be only physical, ,and separation of church and state.
ReplyDeleteLauren: I totally agree. I believe free thinking should be allowed, as long as it is not destructive. Because then the thinking is forced onto others, when it may not necessarily be wanted.
ReplyDeleteLauren, great thinking. Let's talk about the last sentence: "The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or exprie in a convulsion"--what shackles is he suggesting? What responsibility does he suggest the citizens have toward their rulers?
ReplyDeleteI agree with evan, when he said that T jeff is arguing that religion needs to be kept away from government. jefferson knew that if the government was ruled by religion, then it would basically just be like the Puritans all over again
ReplyDeleteSydney: I think that was the only way they knew how to act. The people had not figured out how to accept all other religions and people because they were so used to the prejudice in England,
ReplyDeleteWhat TJ wanted the people to do was change the laws that they inherited from England and form their own laws. Not only did he believe this was a good moral thing to do, but by having one's own laws, it would further seperate them from England.
ReplyDeleteSarah,
ReplyDeleteI was also confused when reading Jefferson, but I think that was based more upon his choice of language than his arguments. We just aren't used to hearing people talk like that. I think Jefferson actually made very solid arguments.
I think that Jefferson, while he did speak out against religious inequality, he was all over the place in his argument, as Sarah suggested. By the end of the article, I felt that this was really more for show then his actual beliefs. It is known that Jefferson spoke out against slavery, even though he owned slaves. When he made the statement "religious slavery," I felt that he wasn't connecting the two concepts. I saw it as a way to make himself look good and throw around words, but he wouldn't actual have the change occur, because it was inconvenient to him.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gabby. I think that one of the main topics of this article was how to unify the country and learning from our past mistakes. I think he talked a lot about religion because one of the main reason that the Puritans ended up the way they did was because they based their entire society on religion. If the religion was corrupt, then the government would become corrupt, and finally the society as a whole would be corrupt.
ReplyDeleteClass: What do you think Jefferson's ultimate goal in writing this paper was?
ReplyDeleteclass:
ReplyDeletewhat do you think was jefferson's strongest argument in this passage? is it that people need to be able to expand on their beliefs with free inquiry or that religion should not control the government?
One thing in Jefferson's "Query 17" that I found interesting was his statement, "It is error alone which needs the support of the government. Truth can stand alone." I think this quote is very important because it demonstrates the importance of error and how mistakes have to be made in order for a society to function correctly. In Puritan culture there was no room for mistakes, Jefferson's saying that we should allow mistakes to help us find the truth. He's saying that we shouldn't be punished for one mistake, but instead we should learn from it.
ReplyDeleteJaine: I believe since he was a smart educated man. they learned about the Salem Witch Trials and such as their past. I think he maybe could have felt religious injustice but, mainly he had looked upon the past and used the past to correct the future. To stop us from making the mistakes we have already made.
ReplyDeleteGrace- I think that Jefferson supported free inquiry. He is saying that without free inquiry many things would not have been created. He gave the example of Christianity, and other religions.
ReplyDeleteJefferson clearly states this, "This is a summary view of the religious slavery, under which people have been willing to remain, who have lavished their lives and fortunes for the establishment of their civil freedom" This means that people had been under this system of slavery where they couldn't express what they felt, without any notice. It is similar to many things we have been reading, where people would blindly follow their government, because they thought it was right.
ReplyDeleteAllie, i think that Jeffersons ultimate goal in writing this paper was to tell about how separation of church and state is important. though i think that he was really contradictory towards him self throughout the paper
ReplyDelete"Query 17" was a very interesting piece of reading. It was very difficult to understand and I''m not sure if I have a full grasp on everything he is trying to say in this story, but I think he is arguing for religious freedom, separation of religion and state, and the need for free inquiry. On the fourth page, Jefferson says: "Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order..." Jefferson is talking about Pennsylvania and New York and the fact that they are accepting of all religions and tolerance has proven to be beneficial to their society.
ReplyDeleteAllie: To enlighten us. I think also he was speaking out in an very bold manner (as none of the Puritans did) and trying to further break away from England's controls over America.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Jefferson is arguing that freedom of religion is especially important to the success of a country because when he talks about freedom of religion he says, " The convention of May 1776, in their declaration of rights, declared it to be a truth, and a natural right, that the exercise of religion should be free..." I think that saying it is a natural right means it should not be repressed. However, when something natural is repressed, chaos ensues. Therefore, Thomas Jefferson is demonstrating how important freedom of religion is to the healthy state of a society.
ReplyDelete@Taylor
ReplyDeleteI believe that todays religious standards are flawed today even more, as Jefferson said, "Our rulers will become more corrupt..." This is true today with constant scandals in the church, and even the pope himself has gotten into scandals. Our religions today are more acute than in the past.
Sydney: I think they showed intolerance because they did not have any experience with religious freedom and therefore did not know how to practice it. I also think that they saw religion as a form of keeping everyone disciplined. Jefferson explained that their intent was to create a place of religious freedom but in the end they, "passed over that which asserted our religious rights, leaving them as they found them." I think this means that they wanted to create a place of freedom but the only way they could see in achieving discipline was through religion.
ReplyDeleteDaniel:
ReplyDeleteI think the strongest argument here is that religion should not be in control of the government. Thomas Jefferson was trying to change from the Puritan way and the ways of England.
Sarah and Ruthie: I found that Jefferson was very repetitive in his argument: religion and government should be separate. Laws are things government creates to pretect the physical, not emotions and opinions. I see what you are saying though, because at the beginning Jefferson seem unclear in his statement. As the paper continues, his argument gets stronger.
ReplyDeleteJanie, Adam, Sydney, and Britni- I partially agree, but I got the impression that he wasn't 100% for free inquiry after reading this:
ReplyDelete"By our own act of assembly... if a person brought up in the Christian religion denies the being of a God, or the Trinity, or asserts there are more Gods than one, or denies the Christian religion to be true... etc."
At the very beginning, he says by OUR own act, including him. Or that's what I assumed, anyway.
Allie,
ReplyDeleteWe know from the date at the beginning of the article that Jefferson wrote "Query 17" in 1784. This is not even ten years after the American Revolution. The Constitution of the United States hadn't even been written yet. I think that Jefferson was trying to convince American why there needs to be a separation of church and state. He used examples of failed theocracies, like the Puritans, to explain why government and religion need to stay separate.
Allie,
ReplyDeleteDespite the fact that they may have been used to persecution, they also despised it. They ran from it and therefore I would have to disagree that they instinctively returned to it. I believe that they began to fear the falsities in their own ways and created a scapegoat, much like we see in the Crucible, to keep themselves from feeling vulnerable to the truth. They feared also that the beliefs of others threatened the relevance of their own. Jefferson clearly challenges this idea: "Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error."
Allie: I think that Jefferson wanted to show how destructive religion and government were when combined into a single body and that in order to progress with thinking and knowledge, government needs to take a step back.
ReplyDeleteAllie: I think that Jefferson's main goal in writing this paper was to show how religion and the government need to be separated. Also to show how we have learned from our past.
ReplyDeleteSuzy: How exactly do you think he contradicted himself?
ReplyDeleteIt was good for a society to be able to agree to disagree. Jefferson wanted our country to stay together and be unified and if we could not settle our differences then we would not tolerate each other.
ReplyDeleteTaylor: I'm not sure he thought it was necessarily flawed... I just felt like he saw in that day they weren't allowed to look into or believe anything else when Jefferson saw the many many possibilities of everything else. If you were punished for what you thought then we would never be able to obtain "all knowledge"
ReplyDeleteHannah F: I really like the way you said that. But I'm curious; shouldn't the new society (America) which Jefferson is talking about in his paper have learned from the mistakes England made? Those very same mistakes which made them want to leave in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSam: Are you saying that conflict amongst a society is good? How much conflict is appropriate?
ReplyDeleteAllie- I think that his main goal was to promote separation of church and state, but I think he did it in a round-a-bout way.
ReplyDeleteGrace,
ReplyDeleteJefferson does say our in the statement, but it seems to me like he is saying "our" because he is a part of the United States. People still say "our" healthcare system, "our" government, "our" military, even if they don't agree with the policies or people running those things. I think Jefferson used our to show that the United States had chosen those things, but I don't think he necessarily agrees with them.
Hannah, I love that you point out that quote. I think it's most important passage in the whole dynamic essay; this quote, in fact, takes Jefferson's argument passed ONLY the realm of religion and applies it to any scenario: "It is error alone which needs the support of the government. Truth can stand alone." Can we unwrap that idea a little more, please?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hannah when she says mistakes have to be made in order for society to function correctly. Societies like the Puritans needed to learn from the mistakes they had encountered in Europe, as did the new American colonies after their freedom from Britain.But Jefferson also implies that this idea of learning from mistakes is harder than it seems, people want to continue living the lives they were familiar with, including living with the same mistakes. I believe this is what he means when he talks about the shackles in the last sentence.
ReplyDeleteAllie- I think that Jefferson's goal in his paper was to provide us with a different perspective than what was thought at the time. I think he was trying to get away from the common mentality of the people during that time.
ReplyDeleteAllie: I think that his ultimate idea for this was to separate church and state. He also used strong examples of how whenever Religion and Government "work together" and it almost alway turns out bad. I think that he believed for this country to excel in its life we would have to completely separate from England, and that includes in how religion plays a part in societies. He learned from their mistakes.
ReplyDeleteSam: I totally agree with you! I think this was what Jefferson really stressed. Plus, a house divided cannot stand.
ReplyDeleteDaniel: I think Jefferson's strongest argument is that people should be able to expand on their beliefs because he says, "The error seems not sufficiently eradicated, that the operations of the mind, as well as the acts of the body, are subject to the coercion of the laws." He uses this argument to support separation of church and state, unity, and the other topics in the article.
ReplyDeleteMargot: But if persecution is really all you know, wouldn't it make sense that you would turn to it, even unwittingly?
ReplyDeleteDaniel, I think the strongest argument here is that church and state must be separate. As we grow the government must also grow. Instead of being like the Puritans where everything was controlled by religion and judging every little thing someone does, we have to develop and change the way we judge people and what they do.
ReplyDeleteI think Jefferson's ideas about free inquiry were important for America's advancement. When the English came to America they wanted religious freedom, but being a Puritan was the exact opposite. Jefferson says different opinions and ideas of every person benefits religion. Free inquiry allowed for advancements in political, social, and economical advancements in America and that is why Jefferson saw it as being beneficial.
ReplyDeleteGrace: I think he's trying to point out in that section how absurd the punishments really were, because afterwards he states, "this is a summary view of that religious slavery under which a people have been willing to remain..."
ReplyDeleteSydney: the mistakes that jefferson is trying to correct is the mistake that the puritans made. They tried to control everything through religion. They made it so that the laws were based on religion and how people were not allowed to go outside religion. They had to stick to it or they were punished. Jefferson is trying to make it so that people can be whatever religion they want and that the laws are not governed by religion.
ReplyDeleteYes, Emily. This essay, in truth, is not just about religion. It speaks to the responsibilities of Americans to inquire and question everything but also respect others' right to do the same. He sees this as a right and a responsibility. Do you think we are abiding by this right?
ReplyDelete@ Evan: What do you mean when you say that religion is more acute today? Is it that we are more aware of it? Or that there are more problems?
ReplyDelete@Lis: Do you think, really, that people in religions today are allowed to think what they want? Have we progressed at all in that area from Jefferson's time?
Dan:
ReplyDeleteI feel as though they were both equally presented; but, I think his main argument was about free inquiry. Jefferson states, "Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man." Which kind of goes along with John Proctor in The Crucible.
Sydney: England was our mother-country, which is similar to parents. They made mistakes, but eventually the child (America) needs to learn from their own. I don't believe that Jefferson was saying let's make the same mistakes, but knew ones in order to develop a greater country.
ReplyDeleteClass: Maybe I'm just reading into it too much, but after reading this:
ReplyDelete"We are answerable for them to our God"
I think Jefferson was trying to say that he knew that there were other religions that believe in different gods, and that the God of Christianity was not the same for everyone. What do you think?
Adam brings up a good point, the first Americans were so used to the old way of life and even though they left because of all the corruption and persecution, they couldn't prevent some of the same mistake from happening again.
ReplyDeleteAllie: I think Jefferson's goal was to promote the idea of rational thinking and that the government should make laws through reason. He also explained that the a new government should not start off with the belief that they have no errors but that with errors, and how the government deals with errors, the government gets stronger.
ReplyDeleteMs. Ackerman,
ReplyDeleteI think the quote "Only error needs support of the government. Truth can stand alone." can apply to religious questioning as well. It could be applicable to embracing the truth that one sees in their own faith instead of the error of other's beliefs. Tolerance is embracing the truth of the beliefs of all instead of fearing the errors that not only they make but one makes about their own faith.
Sydney: i think that the Founding Fathers succeeded in avoiding many of the errors that England made; however, they werent perfect so was impossible for them to fix everything. In the ideal society, yes, there wouldn't be any repeating mistakes but some cant resolved because humans arent perfect.
ReplyDeleteI have a question about the language of the article. Jefferson says:
ReplyDelete"What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites...reason and persuasion are the practicable instruments."
What is the difference between persuasion and coercion? when I looked them up, the definitions were very similar, but Jefferson uses them as if they are different.
Remember, Grace, though, that at this time they weren't familiar with other religions than Christianity.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading Query 17, the paragraph that was most interesting to me was the last one, because Jefferson talks a lot about how government punishing people for believing certain things, is like government is trying to control human nature. Which just isn't possible. Jefferson states, "But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit." Government can only punish/control what we say out loud. There is no way they can control what we think. If government tried to control our actions, then we would be in a situation similar to Fahrenheit 451
ReplyDeleteGrace: The quote you shared with was was only stating what Jefferson says society believes, not his own opinion. He later states that society's views on religion are wrong: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg."
ReplyDeleteI believe that Jefferson was trying to say that there will always be other religions in the United States besides Christianity. What he was trying to say was that people need to accept the existence of the other religions and not condemn the followers. If people don't listen, then there will always be religious conflicts going on in the U.S.
ReplyDeleteAbby: are you saying that you think that Jefferson wanted the US to make mistakes?
ReplyDeleteSydney: Speaking of that quote, what do you think he means by that? I took it that the people gave the religion power over them, and they were willing to stay under that power because they didn't know how to change and take a stand.
ReplyDeleteEvan: I would agree totally, there have been so many bad things that have gone wrong in chruches and slowly our religions have changed to more of what the pastor really wants and without this seperation of church and state the religous leaders would be in total control. In the article it says: "Fallible men; men governed by bad passion, by private as well as public reasons". Our religion has been going downhill.
ReplyDeleteJason: Do you think we are still corrupted in the way that our Founding Fathers were trying to prevent? Or is Jefferson's view of intolerance just as relevant today?
ReplyDeleteHannah: I think the importance behind that quote is huge because I thought he was saying that errors cannot take place unless restrictions are put in place. At the same time I realized governments are the only people who have the ability to put those restrictions in place universally. His quote solidifies his previous free inquiry argument.
ReplyDeleteGrace9on the matter of religious slavery): I disagree. In the article Jefferson said, "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity...". By the way Jefferson was talking, he seemed ashamed that this was the way we acted.
ReplyDeleteChloe, you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what he's arguing.
ReplyDeleteLauren, coercion has more to do with physical or emotional threat whereas persuasion is using logic. Sounds pretty rational, huh?
Grace: I think that he was clearly arguing that. I think he was trying to make people understand that religious superiorities were not appropriate in society. The country was going to be run on "the best religion" and I think that Jefferson was trying to open the minds of people in America, instead of them just following along.
ReplyDeleteGrace: I certainly think that Jefferson was acknowledging other religions. He was well educated in many aspects, including religion, and even owned a copy of the Quran. He probably also speculated that people would still come to America to seek religious freedom.
ReplyDeleteAbby B: Yes, mistakes do help one learn. However, I want to go back to Janie's question: how much mistake is appropriate? How helpful is conflict in teaching, when conflict gets out of hand? Why must we learn from our own mistakes and not the mistakes of others?
ReplyDelete*Grace (on the matter of religious slavery)*
ReplyDeleteMrs. Ackerman- then why would Jefferson say specifically "Our God"? Unless he was just making a general statement?
ReplyDelete@Taylor
ReplyDeletewhen i say acute, i mean skewed, it has many problems, with so many types of Christianity out there, there is constant disagreement, even though the god is the same. Same situation with Islam, small little beliefs of one group has to create a whole new sect of religion, to juge the other. -sadly religion is whats the problem in todays world, which is what T.J. is saying
Ackerman: I feel like Americans forget about this the majority of the time. Most of the big-name politicians these days are so set in their beliefs they do not always take into account the worries and beliefs of others. I think Jefferson was trying to tell us to listen to both sides of an argument to find the best possible solution or discovery before making a decision that could effect others.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Ackerman, if they werent familiar with other religions, then how come they left England to be free of that prosecution. If there was only one religion that people were familiar with then why were people judged?
ReplyDeleteA key sentence that Jefferson says is, "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god." This means no one gets hurt if people disagree with religion, sometimes it helps. it allows for diversity in thinking and new opportunities to be created for the church.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteI think Jefferson feels the two of these go hand in hand. Religion does not always allow for free inquiry, however, government needs to allow for free inquiry for countries, as well as religions, to flourish. Religious freedom is also a part of free inquiry. Questioning one's religion, which can help to solidify beliefs. One example Jefferson uses involves the idea of ancient Rome. Jefferson says: "Had not the Roman government permitted free enquiry, Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free enquiry been indulged, at the aera of reformation, the corruptions of Christianity could not have been purged away." This shows that free inquiry and freedom of religion go hand in hand, and they both tie in to the government allowing for freedom of inquiry. Jefferson talks about the separation of religion and state a lot in this essay, but he also talks about the government and their duty to allow for free inquiry to further the achievements of a country and correct errors.
Jefferson makes the point "Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error." He knows that errors are present in society, but the only way to work through them are to deal with them using rational thought. People need knowledge to deal with the faults of society, especially the government, and this can be established through free inquiry and reasoning.
ReplyDeleteAllie: Im confused on how you came to the conclusion that Jefferson suspected that the US would be the safe haven for people seeking religious freedom. Could you clarify that for me?
ReplyDeleteJoy: I'm saying that Jefferson believed that it was uncontrollable. As Veronica had pointed out, government couldn't control our actions, and if they did, they would go against human nature. Jefferson was suggesting that mistakes would be made because government shouldn't be playing such a huge role in their lives.
ReplyDeleteHe was speaking of the God of Christianity. He was showing unity of belief but respect toward different styles of worship.
ReplyDeleteJoy: I think Jefferson did want us to make mistakes. It's what we learn from, and if we learn from them, then we can change and evolve in the future. Either way, no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, thus, the US has to make mistakes, and we do.
ReplyDeleteAdam, perfect reasoning. Well said. You've noted what makes Jefferson a rationalist.
ReplyDeleteSuzy,
ReplyDeleteThose were different denominations of Christianity. The Puritans (one denomination) were fleeing from the persecution of the Church of England (another denomination). They were all Christian, they just had different ideas about certain parts of the bible.
Could someone help me understand what Jefferson was trying to say when he said "The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion." Wouldn't it seem that after the war the shackles would come off, he says that they will get heavier. I guess I don't really understand that.
ReplyDelete@ Emily K.
ReplyDeleteYou are SO right in your comment. If you ever watch some news stations, the anchorman always cuts people off before they can even finish their statement. And then they just start arguing before they have even herd all that they were going to say.
I think that jefferson brought up a good question in this passage. it was "Is uniformity attainable?" This made me think about how difficult it is to control a body of people with different religions. One of the best ways to do this is not to govern my religions but by laws that apply to everybody?
ReplyDelete@Lauren: Could Jefferson be using the word persuasion, instead of coercion, just so it didn't sound repetitive?
ReplyDeleteLauren: I think the difference between persuasion and coercion is that with persuasion you use it through words and with coercion you use force. Jefferson was trying to explain that through coercion the government has made half the world fools for believing and hypocrites for being punished for not believing but saying they do. Like in the Crucible the whole town could be seen as fools because they believed everything people told them and the other half, or Abby and the girls, could be seen as hypocrites because they out on the facade of believing what people told them so they would not get in trouble.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Ackerman: Although they weren't exposed to other religions Jefferson writes, "Give a loose to them, they will support the true religion, by bringing every false one to their tribunal, to the test of their investigation." So even if they aren't exposed to other religions, he suggests that with free inquiry, that if Christianity was to be examined and deemed unworthy by a majority then they would find a new religion.
ReplyDeleteJake: Jefferson goes on to say that "it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." I think he's saying that he isn't really concerned with the religions, because it does him no personal injury. Would he react differently if it was directed at him?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Adam. I think that the reason that Jefferson pushes for education is because he knows that people need that knowledge to learn from their mistakes and to improve society.
ReplyDeleteJefferson said, "To make one half of the world fools, and the other half hypocrites." I was wondering which half Jefferson believed he fell into.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily. I think Jefferson thought about what was best for the people he understood that everyone had different opinions and that he couldn't please everyone, but that free inquiry allowed for everyone to at least get there point across.
ReplyDeleteJoy: People had already come to America to seek religious freedom. Just because it was now its own independent country didn't mean that that was going to change. Also, the huge tracts of unconquered land in the west meant plenty of places to settle and live peaceful religious lives.
ReplyDeleteAndy: That is true look what happened with like that news story about building the so called "Mosque" around the twin towers. Americans were so angry about that, because they had a different belief than us and also because they attacked us. Also you could take the "Burn a Qur'an day" we made the other religions i America very upset because we disrespected their religion.
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